Daytona Gun Frequently Asked Questions (and ignored answers)

Check the link:
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/blogs/daytona-faq
(Don't defend past actions; what is right today may be wrong tomorrow. Don't be consistent; consistency is the refuge of fools. - Adm. Rickover)

DISCLAIMER: Reading through this FAQ will likely answer many of the questions that you may have regarding this platform. However, it will not answer all of them and the answers may change as the group gains more experience with the platform. What works best for other people may not work the best for you and what works best for you may not work the best for other people. Show humility and try to use your best judgement. There’s always somebody smarter, faster, more experienced, and better than you out there.

Basic Introduction to the Daytona Gun HPA Platform?

So you think you want to buy a Daytona Gun weapons system? Great, please read on and make sure that what you are getting yourself into, is for you.First, be prepared to spend money. Daytona Guns systems are not cheap. They are expensive, they are for those who are not afraid of spending money to have the best. By the time you are done, with the right equipment be prepared to spend around $1000 USD to have a fully operating system. If you have to max out your credit card to buy it, if you have to get a second job to afford it, if you are on food stamps and medicaid, stick with your AEG. All joking aside, they are not cheap as they require more than just a gun and some magazines.
Second, if you buy used, you are buying someone else’s problems. Remember that, yes you can get a great deal but make sure you do some research. Use the SEARCH function on this Facebook page after you read the FAQ. Learn where the problem areas are and make sure that when you buy a used gun that you ask questions to the original owner that cover those basic problem areas. Know that most problems can be fixed (Yourself or at Authorized Dealers) but it will cost money. Most problems have been seen on this site. Search is your friend, search first then post. Big boy (or girls) rules here.
Fourth, lube your damn gun. Lube the bolt and rack it, lube will work its way in. Don't be cheap and under lube. LUBE YOUR GUN. DuPont Teflon Silicone Spray, or Get Some 1000 are your options, use another option and you do so at your own risk. Don't ask if this lube or that lube is ok. Use Get Some 1000.
Fifth, use good BBs. Non-Bio BBs tends to work In terms of weight, use .25g or higher. If your gun is R-hopped, use a heavier weight BB. Break in the gun with the BBs you intend to use.DO NOT USE, OR JUST GENERALLY USE, CHEAP BBS. EVER. AND SAME RULE APPLY TO EVERYTHING, DO NOT CHEAP OUT ON YOUR DAYTONA!
Sixth, take care of your gun. Conduct the proper routine maintenance as if it was a real firearm. You can’t just “set it and forget it” like you could an AEG. However, if you conduct the proper maintenance, your setup will last you a long, long time. And lube your gun.

Basic Setup and Purchasing

A Basic Setup Consists of the Following Items:
• Daytona Gun Kit
• A Correct Donor body For Kit
• Regulator & Air Line
• HPA Tank

How Much Will This All Cost Me?
• Daytona Kit (You will need to supply the externals): $500 USD
• Redline WideBore SFR Air Rig: $170 USD (New)
• 90cu/4500psi carbon fiber Tank: $200 USD (New)

Where Can I Buy These Things?
• Daytona Gun Kit (price in CAD)- https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/...
• Daytona Gun Kit Spare Parts: https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/...
• Daytona Pre-Build Complete Gun: https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/...
• Redline SFR Air Regulator (Widebore, Single QD, Price in CAD) - https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/...
Authorized Dealers of Daytona Gun System:
• Blackblitz Airsoft [DG kits, DG parts, Service & Installation, Air Systems] (ON, Canada)
• JM Airsoft DG specialist [DG kits, DG parts, Service & Installation] (Denmark, EU)
• HPAirsoft.eu [DG kits, Service & Installation] (Poland, EU)
• Taktik Airsoft [DG kits, Service & Installation] (QC, Canada)
Backup Discussion Forum:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/788...
In case group is shut down by new FB policy.

Daytona Gun System Detailed Bulletin:

Daytona Gun Basics:

A.
Reliability of Late 2016 Newly made Kits
-With heated treated shaft spring, reinforced airshaft and POM crush ring(Purchased extra, stock comes with rubber ring), this system is quite tough these days.
-O rings, Shaft springs & crush rings are still considered as wear & tear parts but with much longer life span than old ones. This is like a piston or piston head o ring on AEG, or Nozzles or trigger sears on GBB. It is designed to break first to save other mandatory parts.
-Bolt carriers are reshaped for Bolt tanks to save the top screw(I.E M249 kit with U shape groove to prevent top screw from being eaten up). However, providing screw has been securely thread in and not loosens during cycling (Applying Thread lock).
-Gen4 AK kits have enlarged bolt tank which should not gonna beat itself up easily.

B.
Performance
Mix of results from community feedback. Kinetic Energy Airsoft works achieves a DG G&P kit dropped into Viper tech body and able to get 240 – 250 ft range with very consistent grouping.

FPS consistency wise, like most HPA airsoft products on market, variance is controllable.

** Clean installation and fine tuning is the key.

C.
QC and Installation
-This could be one of the most important things that people having trouble these days. Kits have double quality control these days to keep high level of consistency-- out of factory from HK, and in house in Canadian workshop. Along with 90 days parts warranty to ensure quality of DG kits.
-Back in old days there are lack of proper installation guides so misuse of tools and/or wrong installation could happen. This could lead to significant performance & reliability problems of Daytona Guns. DG kits are heavily mechanical incline system, although kits are improved in a way of becoming more user friendly, they are still requiring quite some skills to do it properly.
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/pages/daytona-warranty-policy

D.
Break-in Period
-Break in period has been significantly reduced on most kits. Normally 1000 to 3000 rounds will allow system to run at 90% optimal shape. Break-in is normal. Just like real steel firearms, GBB rifles or pistols or your dearly cars. Mechanical system always requires break in simply due to a lot of moving parts and metal to metal contacting. If you have constant chops BBs or many jams, IT IS NOT DUE TO BREAK-IN BUT AN INCORRECT INSTALLATION, WEAK MAGAZINE OR BAD/SOFT BBs. This is not what Lubrication can solve either.
-After a clean installation, DG should be ready to go for game at moderate performance, just not at optimized level.

E.
BB & Magazine Choices
Magazines are responsible for quite a lot for DG’s performance and play a big role in game. A magazine with consistent feeding power will ensure every BB can be loaded into chamber properly then being pushed into hopup by shaft (last 4-5 rounds in feeding tube wont, since they will have no spring power to push into chamber) . If feeding force is not enough and BB is only being pushed up halfway into chamber, and shaft smash back, it will cut BB into half and cause jam/chopping.
BB Selection. For most Non bio(Plastic) BBs on market, they tend to work just fine most of time. However, Bio BBs are completely different story. We have very bad lucks with China Made Valken and recent Goldenball bios. HPA bios are tested and working well at this moment. Reason behind it is Bio BBs tend to be softer than plastic BBs and when shaft push them into hopup, they may deform and cause chops, jams or fliers.

F.
Hopup Related
-All Hopup Screws on nowadays kits have been checked and corrected to be exact on top of Hopup Nub. Shaft to Hopup spacing has been corrected to allow BB to be pushed right behind the nub.
-RHop is still the best hopup upgrade out there just like AEG, bolt action rifles etc etc. Its simply Nature of Physic.
-New Hopup solution is under test to make it more user friendly to fine tune. Including putting a rubber nub between screw and bucking. And new buckings are under test to help sorting out BB rolling problems(which could lead inconsistent hopup. If bucking is not setup correctly, airshaft is actual able to push the BB pass the nub and cause no hop).

G
Community Suggestion/Feedback
All levels of criticism are welcome. However, feedback/suggestions with scientific explanation, practical proof or experimental data will be highly appreciated. Direct conclusion/assumption will do no helps.
Improving the system from production side do well than Temporary fixing method on user end.
H.
Aftermarket Parts
-All aftermarket parts are encouraged.
-In progress: Jeffery’s rHop DG Bucking

I.
Conclusion:
This system has flaws like any other products on market. It is very mechanically inclined and requires a very patient heart to tune it properly. At this stage this system requires some skills to do it right. More improvement are on the way to help this system to be more users friendly and achieving higher error forgiveness.
By then if you feel like this is too much of a DIY then getting guns installed or pre-built at authorized dealers will be ideal.


How Can I adjust Muzzle Velocity(FPS output):
• Most DG kits can be operated within 80 -120 PSI. Turn pressure up/down from your regulator to adjust the velocity.
• Highest Operation Pressure is 135PSI but it will void warranty. USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK.
• Most kit will shoot 400fps with 0.2g BB at condition of 375mm 6.05 PDI Barrel, with 105 -120 PSI of air supply.
• Widebore Barrels (E.g. Orga 6.23mm) and short barrel will help reduce the muzzle velocity .
• Lower energy/velocity can be achieved by cutting recoil spring and operates at lower PSI.
• ***Low Energy airshaft is under development. Detail Pending.

What’s the Recoil Like? Is it more than a GIM GBBR?
• According to Chaz Loy and Nick Lynd, the recoil of a Daytona Gun G&P M4 at 120psi is greater than stock GIM GBBRs (WE G39C, WE PDW, KWA LM4, King Arms GBBR, WE GBBR) and about the same as a WE M4 with the Steel Blowback Armory Recoil Kit.
• Most DG platforms kicks heavier than .22 LR at 110PSI.
• So far, Scar-H/MK17, L85 and FAL/SA58 have the heaviest recoil. SR-25 with 4 coils off recoil spring has the highest feeling recoil.

Supported Models

Below is a list of the kits and bodies they are designed for. Others are certainly possible but will require cost to machine and custom design. For the easiest no hassle build please use the donor bodies listed below. Even those will take some modification.
1. AK (Uses steel donor bodies from LCT) LCT bodies are the best for conversions, but picky with magazines. Check under "Builds" why you should use the LCT. ONLY AEG BODIES! Asval or SR-3 series wont work.
2. WE GBBR M4/HK416 (NO AEG BODIES)
3. VFC M27 IAR GBBR, 416C will not work unless you change to full length buffer or modify the recoil spring guide (No AEG Bodies)
4. G&P WOC/WA Spec GBBR M4, No AEG Bodies. Bolt Catch Available
5. FAL/SA58 (Echo1, CA FAL, or Matrix Bodies)
6. M249/MK46 (A&K, CA or Echo1). Will not fit G&P bodies because the G&P does not use the PGC-style gearbox.
7. M240 (Designed for A&K/Lancer/Matrix/Echo1 M240 body, works for all A&K spec body with modification)
8. M60/MK43 (Designed for A&K M60/MK43 body, works for all A&K spec body with modification)
9. PKM (Designed for A&K/Echo1 Body, works for all A&K spec body with modification)
10. G36 ( AEG G36 Body, Classic Army/JG. Do not quote in S&T/Ares, too much trouble, just get Classic Army body and save you 5 hrs of machining and shimming work)
11. SCAR L/MK16 WE GBBR SCAR L Body only
12. SCAR H/MK17 WE GBBR SCAR H body only
13. MSK/ACR WE MSK GBBR Body
14. KAC PDW WE GBBR Body (Due to size of the bolt and barrel length, Muzzle velocity will be generally lower than other daytona gun kit)
15. KAC SR-25 Kit ARES M110 SASS Body. ( SR-25 K body will work with RS/WE style buffer tube,recoil spring assembly needs extra cutting)
16. L85 Fit into G&G L85A2 or Army R85/86 Body (Does not work in ICS & WE Body, dont bother asking)
17. Mp5 Fit into VFC Stamped Steel AEG Body. (Prototype is in final stage and releasing date is TBA. Do not ask ETA)

What kind of Daytona Guns have been but are not being made?
• UZI (project pending, magazine source issues)
• MP5 (SRC Steel Body) Temporarily Discontinued. However, VFC Stamped Steel AEG Mp5 kit under R&D
• Galil (Limited Run) Discontinued
• M14 (Scrapped Due to Bolt Issues) (Pending)
• AUG (Unreliable Pending, prototype trigger)

DG Kits Internal Bulletins:
All Models nowadays come with Steel Bolt except CA G36 Kit.
G36 Kit uses oversized aluminium bolt because polymer body cannot bear the recoil of steel bolt. Trading recoils for High Rate of Fire.

G&P WOC/WA Spec M4 Kit Improvement:
• Functional Bolt Catch works for KWA ERG 60rd Mag
• Shorten Bolt with reduced coils recoil spring to increase reliability as well as lower the ROF close to RS.
• Reinforced Airshaft prevents collar from snapping off.
• Improved Trigger mechanism

A&K/CA M249 Kit Improvement:
• Gen1
• Gen2 with Brass Hopup unit
• Gen3 with Steel Bolt, top weight removed, top screw issue resolved
• Gen4 C-clip Hopup unit design, tension spring no longer needed Barrel Stability issue resolved

LCT AK kit improvement:
The current generation is Generation 4.
• Gen 1
• Gen 2 - Improved Hop-Up System
• Gen 3 - Larger Bolt Tank (increases velocity and reliability, prevents jamming)
• Gen 4 - One-Piece Bolt Carrier, Longer Recoil Spring & Spring Guide Rod, increasing reliability of Bolt tank

Tuturials:
Check file section on this group for more guides and tutorials.
All installation guides are under product description on Blackblitz Airsoft main website.
Additional tutorials and proTips are linked as follow:
http://daytonasystem.com/bbs/index....



Inner Barrels
Daytona Guns use standard AEG inner barrels. 6.05mm - 6.08mm diameter inner barrels are recommended. Use Brass or Steel inner barrels. The aluminum inner barrels are being bent due to the pressure points the set screws put on the inner barrel by the hop-up and cause jams from hell.
Inner barrel with ID smaller than 6.03mm is not recommended. Simply due to less tolerance on dirt( or lube).
**PDI 6.05mm or 6.08mm ID Sus304 Steel barrels are recommended.

Rerouting Air Line to Grip
This is how to install a Grip Line on your M4: https://www.facebook.com/groups/310...


Break In with an Air Compressor
You will need the following:
1. Push-to-connect to 1/4 NPT fitting:
2. http://www.mcmaster.com/#5225k713/=...
3. 1/4 NPT Female QD fitting:
4. https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-...
5. Compressor capable of at least constant 100 PSI
6. Some mechanical fortitude

Spare Parts
Where can I get them?
• Directly from parts dealer at https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/... https://www.facebook.com/DaytonaDK/...
• McMaster-Carr is a great place for ordering air line parts such as O-rings and Fittings.
• Some parts, such as O-rings or screws, can be acquired at regular hardware stores and some can be made with a lathe and/or CNC machine.

General O rings Sizes:
Oversized2x6 mm:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9452K11
2.5x9 mmOversized O-rings:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k166 and http://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k449

Standard Size:
Valve id 5.8x wd 1.9mm x2pc
Valve pin 2x1(x1), 2x1.5mm(x1)
Valve cover 5x1.5mm x1pc
Bolt tank 5.8x1.9 1pc
Bolt tank spacer 5.8x1.9 1pc / 9.3x2.4 mm 2pc
Rhop source material(s):
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5041K54
(This is silicone tubing. If you use this in your DG, clean out your hop up unit with rubbing alcohol religiously after lubricating your gun. may Swell in contact with the old lube)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#5186t15/
(Tygon/PVC tubing. Soft, resistant to lubricants, only available with 1.5 mm walls)

HPA Tank
What Are the Basic Components I Need?
You need an Air Tank, Regulator, and Air Hose.
What Kind of Tank Should I Get?
If you have easy access to 4500psi fills, get a 4500psi tank as it provides much Amore shots per bottle than a 3000psi bottle of the same capacity. Also, they tend to be lighter as they are carbon-fiber or fiberglass-wrapped aluminum rather than just aluminum.

Can I use CO2?
Yes, if the CO2 supply is food grade(No dirty sh*t mixed in)
but it is recommended that you stick with HPA.

Can I use an SLP tank?
Not recommended. SLP tanks do not offer enough output flow for a DG. Some Heavy bolt DGs will have inconsistent full auto under low air flow, performance will be significantly affected.
Note: Airflow and pressure are not the same thing. They affect each other but are not the same.

Daytona Integrated Grip Lines(DIGL or DGIL)
Blackblitz Airsoft and Amped airsoft sells DIGL (AKA Daytona Gun Ingrip Lines).
They provide more air flow than the standard DG air tube option.
They can be found here:
https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/...

Dual tanks?
Yes, there is an option to use two tanks in one setup. This is most suitable for support gunners who use a lot of bbs and air but it works with any system.There are three options:
• Get the Dual Redline firebase directly from Amped. Remember that you also need the single QD hose since it comes with the dual one. http://www.ampedairsoft.com/amped-h...
• Extend your normal SPR to be a dual. What you need is these two parts: http://www.ampedairsoft.com/ninja-d... and http://www.ampedairsoft.com/ninja-s...
With the second option, you just rearrange the parts so it look like the dual from Amped where everything comes pre-fitted.

Magazines and Ammunition

Which Brand of BBs Should I Use?
The current consensus is that HPA BIO BBs are the way to go.
Most Non Bio BBs holds well. Quite some Bio BBs(except HPA brand) are too soft and can cause chopping & fliers.
Which Brand of bio BBs Should I NOT Use? Avoid Bioval, Elite Force, Valken and no-name (Matrix) BBs.

What Kind of Magazines Can I Use?
Any AEG mags for your model. As long as mags have good feeding power or you will have constant chopping BBs and jams.
Some guns that use a GBBR body may need some filing and adjustments to fit well in the magwell.
General M4 platform:
-PTS EPM Gen2 mags(Orange follower), KWA ERG mags and G&P stanmags fit just fine. Goal is to find the best feed and fit mags and stick with it.
SCAR-H:
VFC Scar-H AEG mags, combined with SuperFeed spring for best feeding.
FAL:
Classic Army FAL/SA58 mags, combined with SuperFeed spring for best feeding.
M110 SASS (SR-25):
A&K SR-25 AEG mags or G&P SR-25 Mags
LMGs:
Mag brand mags are tested to be best fit box mags for LMGs.
PKM, M60 & M240, stick with stock box mag, you may try to find a stronger motor for better feeding.

SuperFeed replacement magazine springs are recommended if you’re having trouble with feeding. They can be purchased at Black Blitz Airsoft or JM Airsoft if you’re in Europe. They are compatible with most midcap magazines. https://blackblitzairsoft.myshopify.com/... Americans can purchase SuperFeed Springs from Amped Airsoft or Brill Armory : https://ampedairsoft.com/maple-airs... http://www.brillarmory.com/index.ph... As of December 2016, the following retailers stock SuperFeed Springs:
Canada: BlackBlitz Airsoft Inc US: Amped Airsoft BRILL Armory MiR Tactical Europe: JM airsoft. Daytona specialist denmark Fire Support (soon)
KWA/PTS ERG/RM4 AEg mags can also be used with the specially made bolt catch for bolt lock back on last round (for M4 PDW models only).
Only G&P m4 has bolt Catch available ATM.

***ProTip: If the magazines and BBs work perfectly for you, DO NOT change, keep using the same brand same model as it will not give you headache.

Basic Troubleshooting Tips
Just as an FYI, before calling, emailing, PM'ing, or posting about a Daytona build or one that is not cycling, feeding, working on full auto/semi auto, or just all around problems...here goes:
1. LUBE IT with Get Some 1000. Applying thin layer of lube precisely on bolt tank, bolt carrier and middle part of airshaft. Too much lubricant may cause hopup problem(no hopping due to greasy hopup rubber).
2. Check your mags to the body. Some mags are no good and may only need some minor filing to release the bb lever to feed them. Check the feeding power. If you are not sure, borrow mags from your buddies and try to see if your DGs work normally.
3. Check your regulators. WE ONLY recommend using a Redline SPR. Actually, We only recommend the ones that with Widebore and Single QD. This is NOT a problem with Redline or the regulator. It is a problem with air flow and the QD that is on the red to line is restricting air flow on Daytona Guns.
4. Check how the levers operates. Tutorial video here: in the group. Your question has a high chance of being asked several times over years. Search is your best friend, save your time and effective.
5. Having a air leak problem? Here’s a handy guide courtesy of Eric Andreas Stenberg Step 1 - Airvalve: Put the airshaft in so it seals. The back holes on the shaft should not be between the orings. Attach the tank and press the valve in. It should fill the block and seal completly against the airshaft or you have a leak. Step 2 - Bolttank and plunger: Assemble the bolttank with plunger and airshaft. With the plunger in, you should be able to blow in to the rear of the airshaft and it should seal tight inside the bolttank. Else: change all orings in tank and plunger (both outer and inner). Remember to blow HARD! It works at 120psi and you can maximum get 3psi so... If you have the means: Assemble the bolttank and make sure the plunger can not leave the bolttank at any way. Put the airblock on and give it a push. If the plunger sits in the tank and it doesn't leak, it is sealed. Step 3 - Hop up: The rubber should seal tight at the barrel. Put the rubber on, seal the end and blow through the other. If leak, seal! Assemble the hop up: repeat. If leak, fix! Step 4 - Hop up to airshaft: The hop up should seal against the airshaft. Assemble the hop up to the rest. Seal feedtube and other holes and blow down the barrel. If leak, seal! Step 5 - Test fire: Fire and chrono right from bb 1. Fire a series of 10 bbs and the fps should not deviate more than 2-3 fps. If it does, repeat step 1-4 or if you can identify the leak directly.
Also a note: When changing to oversized o-rings, you increase the internal friction. This creates the need for a minor break in of the o-rings where it will have decreased rate of fire. Shoot till normal.
Also: Use 2000 grain paper on the back of the airshaft. If installation is not correct and shaft got flared due to rapidly smashing against rear or receiver, this can be sharp and damage the o-rings during assembly so rounding the edge minimize this risk.
To be Added....

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